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Sex with Dr. Jess


July 31, 2020

Navigating Interracial Relationships: One Couple’s Experience

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Jess is Chinese-Jamaican-Irish-Canadian. Brandon is Canadian of British descent. Race and culture have always been central topics in our relationship and this week, we’re sharing our perspective as a mixed-race couple. We don’t speak for anyone but ourselves, but we hope this conversation leads to more meaningful ones in your own relationships. We discuss:

  • Jess’ mixed race experience and expectations as a model minority
  • The importance of creating safe spaces for your partner in mixed-race relationships
  • How to deal with family members’ blatant and subtle racism
  • 5 insights for white folks looking to support POC in relationships

To learn more about how you can navigate difficult conversations about race, check out Jess’ interview on Global TV’s The Morning Show here.

If you’ve got questions or topic suggestions for the podcast, submit them here. As well, you can now record your messages for us! Please record your message/question in a quiet room and use your phone’s headphones with a built-in mic if possible.

And be sure to subscribe on Apple PodcastsSpotifyPodbeanGoogle Podcasts, Amazon MusicStitcher!

Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health or other professional advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Navigating Interracial Relationships: One Couples Experience

00:00:05 – 00:05:07

You’re listening to the sacs with Dr Jess, podcast sacks, and relationship advice you can use tonight. Welcome to the sex with Dr. Jasser podcast I’m your co host Brandon. Wear here with my lovely other half. Hey, doing today babe. I’m good. How are you? Feeling good. We had a weekend away in our nation’s capital. A lot of people who aren’t Canadian don’t know that our capital is Ottawa. They either think it’s Toronto or as non-canadians say Montreal. More. Real Montreal. But your nation capital nation’s capital Ottawa is Ottawa and we were in town for the weekend enjoying the city mostly enjoying one of the parks nearby Gatineau Park, we did a number of big hyphen and went swimming and paddle boarding. So I’m feeling pretty good to have gotten out of the city. Agree weekend. It was a beautiful city. Access to parks the downtown core not so busy knows quiet. Yeah it was. It was very, very quiet. It’s it’s a pretty city. They have all the old beautiful parliament buildings in the old. Library, and Supreme, court of Canada and all those things but it is a it’s a smaller city even though it’s our nation’s capital. Yes I would agree but at the real advantage and what makes me so drawn to it even over the course of the weekend I kept saying I think I. Could live in Ottawa is the fact that their fifteen minutes from getting know park, which is fabulous for hiking and skiing and swimming, and exploring and all that jazz. This is my second time and get to know this year I mean I never go there but I had a GIG this year in February and went on some winter hikes but it was nice to be back with you. You do on those winter hikes. Amazing. Yeah. Really. What do you mean because it’s it could be. I’m trying to think of the conversion of temperatures it could be sixty, five degrees and. And you’re freaking out about how you’re freezing cold. It’s the coldest day of your life. I know it was much colder than sixty five. It was all snowy when I was there we’re talking back in February generally I’m a human heating machine rarely I cold or at least I, think rarely no enjoyed the winter hike you were always cold. So I’m surprised that you felt okay you know what it was I was in town just for the day basically and I I when I’m traveling for work member those long days I remember seems like so long ago when I’m traveling for Work I. was like to do something fun. So I went on this call hike and reminded me that. We needed to get back to get you know. So I’m glad I’m glad we did this weekend if oh, good to kind of just escaped from the House and be in a in a different a different environment and they’re taking physical distancing very, very, very seriously in Ottawa like I was so impressed with the cafes and coffee shops and you you actually stood six to seven feet away from the register and they ran the wire for the credit card machine so that you didn’t even have to go within six feet of the and they had big partitions up onto the doing much better job than Toronto. Even terms of an I can’t speak for all the stablishment but even just. Flow of traffic through some of the coffee shops and restaurants. It’s very clearly marked and made me feel much more comfortable. Yeah. We’re still taking this seriously. So we went through for a number walks in the city through little Italy which is fairly small. There was a chinatown also fairly small. I did notice The lack of racial diversity walking around the city for sure like I felt like I might have been the only Chinese person I saw because I do look in every. Town I would. I looked in every reflective surface. So I saw a lot of myself. But that’s and that’s what we’re talking about today. Maybe that was a really bad segue, but it is something that I noticed and also remarked upon and it’s something that I noticed as I travel in previous weeks we’ve been in Paris Ontario’s. If you check out my instagram, you’ll see the trip report there and we were in Niagara on the lake a couple of times which is obviously Really stunning beautiful area with a interesting wines being produced and I love it, and at the same time, it’s it’s really white and lately, of course, everybody’s talking about race. I’m always talking about race and I, think over the course of our relationship I’m you’ve probably felt like man, she’s always talking about race I think I used to feel like you’re always talking about race years ago and I now, I’m I’ve realized I’m coming to realize learning that it is something that we will always talk about and we should always talk about and be aware of I think Being around. White people when you bring up race as a person of color, it definitely make seems to make white people uncomfortable is that how you would I mean I am a white person I. When we first started having these conversations about race. I was there was a knee jerk response immediately where it’s like.

00:05:07 – 00:10:13

Well, that’s not me. That’s not who I am and. I’ve had to really challenge myself and I continue to I. WanNa be very clear that I am far from where I. Like to be and I don’t know exactly what that means, but just the continuing of learning but it was a it was uncomfortable to have these conversations now learning that is needed. To to needs to be that way, there has to be discomfort. Right in that discomfort really pales in comparison to the fear and to the other consequences that I think people of color face. So you’re uncomfortable with being white you’re you’re going to be seen as racist, but literally, people are afraid for their lives for their security for their safety for their financial stability for their kids. Yeah. That’s what’s so funny. Even as you mentioned, it’s not funny but it’s it’s frightening for me to think about my discomfort in a conversation pales in comparison to people’s discomfort living their lives, right so you’re the fact that I’m going to have to be uncomfortable and I’m going to have to be called out and I’m going to have to confront that. That that fact, the fact that I’m white and the privilege that accompanies that is nothing in comparison to what other people live with every single day and as swim a mixed race person and I’m sure people know I’m Chinese Jamaican on my mom’s side and I’m Irish. My Dad’s from Canada on the other side and so I mixed and sometimes I’m passing I think more. So with you than when I’m on my own but be people ask me about my they ask me my nationality all the time I’m like. Well, I’m Canadian. No, no no. Where are you from Toronto known where are you from? And then they’re like, well, we’re where are your parents from Vancouver in Jamaica and that just further confuses them because I clearly look more. Chinese. And people obviously come to associate Jamaican, for example, with black. But if you look at the history of an island those. Colonized multiple, times, and they brought folks over the Brits brought Jamaicans. Oh sorry brought Africans over to Jamaica to build the island people always think of Jamaica as a black island but. Certainly, there are many black people in Jamaica who. were. Used to build this nation and is really on their backs. Upon which the the nation was built by by a number of different groups. So the Brits were there Spanish were there, and so the you know they say out of many one people but there are there tends to be one people that benefits more and they’re it’s still very racially stratified and of course I as a non I don’t. Live in Jamaica so I’m not going to necessarily speak on on Jamaica but I do want to talk about living in an interracial relationship, and I only want to speak about our own experiences because no to relationships are alike but also because as a mixed race person, my is different than as somebody who is full Chinese or a full-on Chinese are. Or black or Indian, or I can really only speak about our own experience in it’s interesting because certainly, there are some very significant cultural differences in terms of expectations and those expectations might be different just on an individual basis but there are differences between between our cultures and and from little things in terms of you know how you interact with your parents or what’s expected of you as a kid or. Pressure within the family or or other things daily things like how you eat your meals. can be really different. Yeah I mean I’m British of British descent my parents are my mom immigrated here from from the UK from England and my dad was born here generations. He’s been here and lake. You said even the way like our cultural differences. What is important with regard to family or food? Are I’ve learned over the years are just very different? And money like when kids? Yeah I mean it runs the gamut and I think a lot of these things I wouldn’t have ever thought about had. We not had I not partnered with you I think or I don’t know that I wouldn’t have thought about them but I wonder. How I would have thought about them differently and it’s very interesting to I. Mean I am so appreciative of being challenged by you and having the privilege of loosening learning by listening to you and your your involvement and your experience and how it shapes my. MIC experience in general I think that speaks to you know if I were to think about how you can be supportive of of your partner, it really is being open to to listening and learning from from their experiences and I’m not talking about necessarily a me learning about the white experience because the white experience is centered and I’m not saying I don’t have anything to learn.

00:10:14 – 00:15:13

But as a person of color I, think what I wanNA feel is listened to by a partner and and you know I want you to understand that my experience is unique in that you can’t always draw a parallel to your own and make it about you because that’s something we see in relationships where. One partner will say why? I dealt with this racial discrimination and on the other partner will chime in a while. I was discriminated against once because I wore this hat or something like that. You know I mean I’m exaggerating obviously here but I think it’s important to remember that if you’re a white person, it’s not always about you because all of us as humans. We have a tendency to want to chime in and share stories of discrimination in our own stories of stigma. But when it comes to race if it’s not your own I think it’s better to listen and offer support and not try and offer solutions because that’s something I’ve run into in the past with folks single maybe if you did this or spoke this way. Or looked this way and I’m not really looking for solutions and again, really just speaking as a mixed race Chinese white percents the experience of a black person’s GONNA be entirely different and you know within the Chinese culture and I’ve seen it in my family. I’m anti black racism also exists and I know that there’s a lot of talk right now of language. Around people of Color But when we mean black, we should say black if we’re specifically talking about black lives mattering, we can use black as opposed to just the more general term people of color because people of color can be racist to and people of color like me can benefit from racial oppression I fall on the side of of privilege in many ways. But. The other thing is you and I ran into this years ago Another important piece besides listening is being willing to learn from your partner but also not asking them to be a teacher, and so you you know to be an ally or to be an accomplice meaning someone who looks to tear down the systems of oppression not just stand in not stand as an ally but to really. Fight against systems that continue to oppress. it’s an ongoing process. You have to do the work yourself as well. You can read, you can google you can subscribe to different publications. You can do a workbook like me and white supremacy because if you’re turning to your partner at every turn for information or validation it’s important to remember that you know they can arrive at every conversation already tired I think a lot of people are saying, right Now, this is a really hard time for for black folks or other people of Color, but it’s not an especially difficult time. It’s always been hard black folks have a history of being oppressed. The only part that’s really changed is that now more non black people are talking about it or changing their instagram profile or trying to center voices, and hopefully we’re keeping you know our foot on the pedal as they say. Yes even sitting here listening to you I’m I’m analyzing how I’m feeling this conversation and if I had to admit to this, even Alec I am uncomfortable like I am uncomfortable having this conversation I think about. People listening to what I have to say judging me and all of that like I said like we said before pales in comparison to the experience of others who lived through these microaggressions and other forms of oppression on a daily basis and how my discomfort in having a conversation is nothing. Are you afraid you’re gonNA say something wrong on the Freedom GonNa see something at times that. Embarrasses like at that I embarrassed myself for that I. I say something immediately I know that Oh, my Gosh, I’m I’m trying to be that that person who is like people have said Oh you’re you’re in the pasture woke I’m like are you are you ever really woke like I don’t think you ever really can because it’s so fluid. You have to be constantly learning and at and even as you said that I think back over the years where you’ve been like, take it upon yourself. To, learn don’t rely on me and even you saying that to me immediately my oh, my God I feel bad and it’s like we’ll stop feeling bad for yourself and go do something about it. I kind of remember a turning point in our relationship where you started reading different publications not just white washed mainstream news and I felt as though I didn’t have to explain things as much I. Felt as though our perspectives became more line. Obviously our experiences are different but yet even just when you started reading more work by black authors or other authors who are people of Color when you started reading more perspectives on the news from you know outlets like the Rooch I I ever feeling a sense of relief because this is hard to explain an uncomfortable I’m uncomfortable to like.

00:15:13 – 00:20:04

I’m sitting. Here thinking being a mixed race person is weird number one I have my feet on each side of the fence and it is it’s a really weird experience. I think it. It informs a a very big part of who I am and never really feeling like I fit in anywhere like I’m that way and business sometimes I feel that way even with friends and I feel that way with family. It’s a very strange experience but also you know I know that that I’m a fearful of judgment. I’m fearful of people get coming at me. You’re saying like, Oh, you’re always making it about race but the thing is every interaction is about your core identity and when you aren’t white people, that’s the first thing. oftentimes people see about you could be could also be gender in in some cases so. I think that Yeah I just remember this shift in our relationship where you kind of I don’t want to say you got it. Okay. I’m not saying that like people arrived at a place but I, remember that I didn’t have to explain things in the same way or share perspectives in the same way. And Yeah just it felt like a sense of relief because for some people of Color you arrive at a conversation or you arrive at work or you arrive at a relationship and you’ve already faced these layers of feeling threatened or feeling unwelcome or feeling unsafe, and so when you think about that in like an institutional context of oppression, you think about somebody riding the subway. And being harassed on the subway even just women not feeling safe like having to change the way we dress. So that on a nice walk on a sunny day, we don’t have to deal with harassment. So there’s an emotional exhaustion that comes with that, and then you arrive at work you arrive at a conversation or you arrive at a relationship already kind of worn down if that makes sense. Yeah I mean it completely makes sense and. You you mentioned a couple of years or however long ago. It was when I had that shift in attitude I remember vaguely the conversation where you said, you take it upon yourself to learn don’t rely on me and don’t rely on others and that’s when I did start reading very smart brothers and the route and reading I remember reading Michael Harriet, and you know his his weekly or monthly clapback a section. And starting to recognize the daily trusses ities and the daily. and. That was what was so surprising because it’s not covered, it’s not talked about and you start seeing these things that seem ridiculous and how frequently they happen and how they’re not reported, and that’s when I started realizing that this is. The this is mind blowing for again as somebody who can. Close his eyes and go through his life. Without ever having. To, worry about being oppressed or being discriminated against and it was like. Wile like wake up start paying attention right and I don’t know if it makes you more aware I think about in relationships. I always want to feel like I’m walking into a safe space, and so there have been times where you know I I’ve been subjected to either subtle racism and I’ve always known that you’d stand up to those people. And let them know that it’s not welcome in your life and I know that you’ve always been willing to have awkward conversation so that I don’t have to feel threatened I, don’t have to feel unsafe I don’t have to feel demeaned but I think it’s important to note that you know whether it’s family or friends if you continue to spend time with people who are either blatantly or subtly racist, you have to kind of ask yourself why and can you really be an ally and if you’re dating somebody who’s a person of color? Are you making sure you’re putting them into safe spaces and this is a conversation that you know I wouldn’t have. Known how to even start twenty years ago when we start dating and I can see in your eyes that you like feel badly, and that’s not what I’m trying to say I just wanted to more share my experience about not always feeling safe and knowing an to tell you the truth I think. As a young woman? And as a mixed race woman and as a woman who? We come from being Chinese, which is more the model minority and were expected to not speak up were expected to laugh it off. In fact, we’re expected to to to exhibit our own internalized racism like I remember going up that way in and just trying not to be Chinese like, why would I wanna be Chinese when I could fit in? Why would I wanNA be Chinese when I could be more liked and you know be cooler. But then I ate the food, the white food and I was like I. Now go back to being Chinese. Don’t like these meat and potatoes. But the creation of safe spaces for your partner is really important I.

00:20:04 – 00:25:03

Think I’m really happy that this conversation has been opened up. So that folks who are dating someone white folks were dating a person of color can really think about like am I introducing you into a space that is safe and if I’m willing to introduce you into a space that isn’t safe why? Like what what is it? That I? What privilege usually am I looking to uphold? You said that years ago where or were somebody who commented on. The, just the kind of acknowledgement, the people around you and your family are racist and you chalk it up to us my racist on color whatever he’s not thinking that it has any. You know it’s kind of sweeping and other old. They’re not going to change or whatever it is. That’s just who they are and you can deal with, and then you think about how that impacts the people that care that you care the most about years ago. I had to confront family members who made comments about. Certain minorities. And having that conversation and walking out was probably one of the most difficult things were one of the more difficult things I’ve had to do awkward terribly awkward. And you walk down in the middle of the fight with this family member, and then you drove away and we’ve got actor. Come, pick me up because I couldn’t go back and I was far away from. Yes again. But. But it was just like. Making doing that and then thinking about what happened after and it’s so it’s exactly what they say is that the person who was offended ended up crying and the need to the person who is being racist. Racist ended up crying and then somehow I ended up Paula Jones possessing. Because they felt bad over over the the racist comments that were made and they made they may so they fat ’cause you call them out on their racist and code, and so instead of the person who was hurt by the racism that would-be me crying the person who was racist ended up, crying their tears to bring the focus back to themselves during themselves, and then of course I’m placating I’m making them feel better rather than just saying, no, it’s awkward. You deal with it. You figure out your stuff this matters to me and you know if that were to happen today I wouldn’t I I know that I would see what’s happening and I would say. You, this isn’t on me but I’m. I’m reflecting back over the years and the things that I have that I haven’t said, and as a white person, the ability shoe. Other. White people just assume that they’re your bro immediately I can tell you and I don’t know if we’ve ever talked about this but I remember and again this isn’t me getting mad at you for not creating a safe space although I’m glad we’re having the conversation I remember someone near family saying like Oh you’re I don’t remember how it came up a though you’re went to an almost all white school and you were Chinese So the guys must’ve gone crazy for you or you must think words were you must have been such a delicacy and that’s the second time in my life that I’ve only had two white partners but that a white partners family has called me that a delicacy pretty sure I’d lost my mind if you’d heard that you’re right but I I shouldn’t even be in that environment and and it’s on me to to know. How do I say it like I was saying before and I know I’m rambling a little but you raised as this model minority raise to just kind of keep your head down and fit in. You don’t speak up you laugh at those jokes because. Even though they make you uncomfortable. You don’t WanNa make other people uncomfortable on that comes from both race and gender and Yeah I. think There’s something that I’m learning about myself if I reflect on my whole life. There were always things that made me. Feel uncomfortable that didn’t sit right with me and I never had the language to describe it, and like some of that has to do with severe resum like going rich people going into a country and trying to like save a community and taking pictures like. with, with the locals who are usually either Brown or black, and it’s just one white person in the photo with all of these locals and and again, I don’t want people to. Stop, listening, and feel judged I’m just telling you that that’s always sat as uncomfortable for me never had the language around it. I just knew that it didn’t feel right I remember even people joking about like wanting to get like adopt an Asian baby ’cause Asian. Babies are so cute and again it’s probably something I just kind of laughed at and was like Oh yeah. Asian. Babies are cute I was adorable but. Now, I look back and I’m like, okay I see all the Savior Ism in this and it’s it’s the same within the family where these things that have been said to me I remember another. Person In another family. So like I said, I had one other white partner in my life and I was young and she’s like, Oh, you’re Jamaican and she said I went to Jamaica.

00:25:03 – 00:30:13

It’s so hard there because white women and she used the word delicacy as well. She said I’m like a delicacy down there for them and I was I remember being like really young and just rolling my eyes in my head but also wanting to fit in with this family and so I think that I bring this all up and share my story. To just you know offer a perspective that if you are bringing your partner into a space with family with friends, can you make sure it’s safe for them? So they don’t have to go through this and deal with this Harmon I. I mean honestly, and maybe people for some people. It sounds like I’m complaining I could write pages and pages of these incidents. Reflect back on my upbringing things that I’ve said things that I’m. Embarrassed that I’ve said I need to be called out I need to be slapped in the face with some of the things that I’ve done and Jackie slapped I hope it’s not i. Don’t know what that is. Google it. But yeah I mean the ball smashing the face. So if that’s your thing rock and roll but. I do know that over the years over the last number of years. There is a lot of my family that we don’t see anymore and a big reason for that is because of the values in the beliefs and the actions that they’ve taken. That honestly make me feel uncomfortable being around them and and this is the first time I’ve said that and if they are listening then they’ll know. And and you know. How do you move forward from this like we would need To have a conversation somebody who need to. Express. I don’t even know what I would be I’d be looking for a reason to say, okay why is it safe for us to come back into the space? Right and I guess if you are hearing either subtle or blatantly racist talk from family members and I think like blatantly racist talk I think is easier to to call out. But some of the more subtle stuff like that you’ve you know I’ve heard about you know my race bringing the neighborhood values down in some of that nonsense I think people need a reminder that you have a right to speak up and I also think you have a responsibility. So you can you kind of if you hear your someone in your family talking this way? Can you ask them? Why in what? Like what? What would make you say something like that? What makes you think that it’s true and then maybe talk a little bit about what it is and and. And you know you don’t have to get angry at them, and in fact, your anger might be useless, right? It’s really about you have this opportunity to. Tear down some of these. intergenerational expectations and norms with logic with Dada with the reality of history with discussions of systemic racism and systemic discrimination and the long term costs, and you don’t have to be an expert like I, think people are worried about winning an argument when in fact, it’s not about winning an argument. It really is about I think leading that family member know how? You feel like can you repeat their words back to them so that they know that you’re listening and can you be okay with making it awkward and make it uncomfortable because again, any awkwardness or lack of comfort pales in comparison to the fear with which so many folks are forced to live every single day because of systemic racism and I think it can be helpful. If you know a family member says something to let them know how it makes. You feel like let them know that it makes you feel hurt or unsafe or threatened or distanced or saddened like don’t just say that’s not appropriate or Racist. I’m fine. You can see that if you want but can you tell them? You know I want to have this conversation with you because I do care about you but I also care about folks beyond our family and I know that you do too. So I, know we both care. Let’s keep talking even though we don’t agree or you might say something like you know. When you say things like that. It sucks for me because it makes me feel so far apart from you like I. Don’t feel like I can really connect I don’t feel like we can have this relationship. I WanNa feel close to you and I think also it’s important to know like, Brennan something you’re really good at is saying like you know what? I thought that way or I spoke that way what and I’ve I’ve kind of. Changed. The way I think like I used to think one way, and then I learned about this piece of history and I realized that maybe the way I thought wasn’t so reasonable I of realized that I’ve done more harm than good I realized that I’ve heard people. And I want to do better and I’m trying to learn kind of along side you and of course, you know you can share resources. I hate when I like even in Brooklyn nine nine, which is show I love There’s a joke about like, oh, I got this email and that email and a slightly racist email from my older relative like something funny like ha ha those old folks but let’s just remember and maybe this comes from my Chinese side but old folks are smart or smarter than us and they can unlearn racism.

00:30:13 – 00:35:01

Absolutely. Just as they share around, they’re racist jokes. So can we will not share the racist jokes but we share our perspectives we can share articles and books and tools and videos that help them to see other perspectives like if you’re like me on your on any Caribbean WHATSAPP group every morning, you like different prayers and stuff like that. Won’t you know what? intersperse. With some other resources as well and let let them know that it’s it’s not cool and your social feed does that right? It’s not just virtue signaling because those people are watching and listening and they’re learning from you. So this this is going to go on a lifetime. and. I was also wanting to bring up one other thing we ended up talking longer than I expected I. thought this would be kind of a shorter one, but I think it’s also important to remember that dating or marrying or having a kid. With. A person of color. Or with black person if you are a person of color because anti black racism is so extreme and anti indigenous racism as well. So don’t assume dating or marrying a person of color makes you less racist or less accountable? Actually, it should make you more accountable and that proximity to blackness or Brown nick or asianise is no shield at all against the racism the subtle racism schism that’s ingrained in our upbringings right? Just you know it’s like me as a Chinese person I, don’t understand the experience of a black person I can only learn and listen and so yeah, I just think it’s important to note that you know no matter what we do. We can’t ask for cookies like fighting for basic human rights is just basic human decency. It’s not an act of heroism like you know if you look in movies, there’s always like the kind of white hero who speaks out against an absurdly inherently racist system and so I guess you know as we share our experiences. What’s most important is that you know if you WANNA support your partner, you have to ask them how they WANNA be supported because I can’t speak for anyone but myself and no two people want the same thing. So ask them what does support look like like they want to engage in deep conversations about race with you or maybe they don’t maybe they just want a reprieve from these discussions and they just want general self. Care at the end of the day I think some of us. Really. WanNa let it all out and some people are looking for like acts of service that just show that you recognized have recognized how exhausting this can be. So I mean, it comes down to the same thing. It could be a one line podcast, which is ask your partner, what you can do to support them you. You brought up some really good points that. That I. Remember. Thinking about where you even on the social side you’re like, what is your social feed look like if you WanNa learn more what is your social? What is your social network look like and when I looked at it it was. Lots of white. Lots of whiteness and a Lotta white men for you. Yeah. Just. A lot of a whole lot of whiteness and when I started changing that up. And when I started paying more attention. it really started to help me understand more like you said, even making an effort on my own to go out and do the work to understand. I’m not relying. I shouldn’t be relying on somebody else to do that work for me as you said and. You know those things really helped change and and just. Being uncomfortable like right now like I, I am uncomfortable but I need that discomfort and I am fearful of the day where I will be called out and I will and I need to be called out. And also understanding that on called out I may not be able to make the situation. Better on the spot because hurt somebody. And I have to be okay with that. I have to be okay with it in that. I have to make an. Effort to fix the wrong that I’ve done and. I don’t feel old but as I’m getting older, I’m realizing that like you said, the systems that exist the systemic racism is rampant. And it’s not about. Small changes like it really does need to be torn down nine down it needs to be torn down in I mean as as a white man who’s got all the privilege in the world. The the extent of the `ISMs that exist when you’re around other white people is mind blowing. Like and the commentary and the looks. All the subtleties.

00:35:02 – 00:40:06

When you start paying attention to them, and when you start looking at the history books and when you start paying attention to even like we said, we were in Ottawa and you look at the signs that talk about the explorers is. That they’ve built in the things that they’ve done they neglect to highlight the people the indigenous people that were there that were literally wiped out that were that were murdered the whitewashing of history when they use the language of explorer or what’s the other word they use when we’re on the get. Tino. Trail they use the language of explorer or like a builder. It’s a word like builder when really these were colonizers and I think that listen I know Canadians can get very defensive. I mean we’re all defensive bears. But Canadians are very proud of their heritage and unfortunately we rest on these laurels that we don’t have the same issues they have in the states and that’s certainly not the case when you look at the quality of life of indigenous folks in Canada but I am not saying let’s tear down Canada altogether what I’m saying is can we use language that reflects? Accurate history so that we can learn from it and do better and and you’re right. We do have to look at tearing down systems. It needs to be radical I mean I’m of the belief it needs to be revolutionary means that people like like you and I who benefit from these systems will have to lose financially and in other ways and that from us. Okay. That for me makes sense because I, I mean just even if you look outside. At people leave the housing crisis we have in Toronto right now we need affordable housing I know that’s a different topic, but it all ties in with race it all ties in with relationships at ties in with the way we see family right and access to resources. We have a housing crisis here in Toronto where it is far too expensive to live, and we have two thousand people on the street every single night at least I mean that’s some of the data that I’ve read in recent months it may have been updated since Cova whiff to do something about it, and if we don’t tear down systems that hold up nothing but prophet were run into trouble. And we see that I mean rich people be rich, right? Are So hard for us as God forbid you you take a hundred dollar, a month, two, hundred dollars a month reduction in your rent. If it means that you know somebody else I mean as a landlord is a landlord somebody else has has access to housing at a more audible rate I mean, even then you see how the systems exist to keep people in different in like straddling the economic. The wealth and then you you profit up with the myth of meritocracy. The belief that I’ve worked for everything I have and of course I feel like I’ve worked and anyone who looks at mean they all call me a workaholic but there’s a lot of a lot of luck and privileged involved in this. But I I want to say before we go the really this is just our experience and don’t pretend to speak for everyone i. think it’s really important because I’m mixed to acknowledge that my experience maybe a lot easier than a lot of people are remind couldn’t easier. Literally have every privilege under the Sun could married a white person. But I’m very, very happy. But then what would you do with the food? You love my Chinese food. So I hope this discussion proves somewhat useful. You know about being open to listening and learning. I’m not expecting a partner to be your teacher really thinking about creating safer spaces I’d love to do a whole episode with an expert on that because certainly I’ve put myself in uncomfortable positions are families. We’ve allowed that to happen the notion that marrying somebody who is a person of color doesn’t make you less racist less accountable. I. Think that’s something really reflect upon. And asking your partner how you can support them. So I think those are kind of five potential action items for people to to begin with it reflect upon, and then of course, if you do have family members who are are being racist or you know exhibiting subtle racism, which can be even more insidious. That, you have a right to speak up letting it be, awkward. Letting them know how you feel admitting your own imperfections, sharing resources and and shutting down knowing that you can like flood your feet and flood your conversation so that they know that this matters to you. So we’re GONNA stop there Thank you for listening. Thanks for being open to our imperfect and incomplete and certainly not universal perspective. But hopefully, we start some conversations and you keep those conversations going. Just to nope before I go that in terms of sponsorship we decided to forego sponsorship on this episode because we feel it’s a sensitive topic, a really personal one and not one that I feel. Comfortable monetize ING. You’re listening to the sex with Dr.

00:40:06 – 00:40:10

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