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Sex with Dr. Jess


November 9, 2016

Sugar Baby Bares All

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Are you curious about the life and experiences of a sugar baby? In this episode of Sex With Dr. Jess, Sexologist and Relationship Expert Jessica O’Reilly interviews Brooke. Brooke speaks candidly about her relationship with her sugar daddy, comparing it to “traditional” relationships.

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Rough Transcript:

This is a computer-generated rough transcript, so please excuse any typos. This podcast is an informational conversation and is not a substitute for medical, health, or other professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the services of an appropriate professional should you have individual questions or concerns.

Episode 04: Sugar Baby Bares All

Jessica O’Reilly

00:00:00 – 00:01:53

Hello there. This is Jessica O’Reilly. I am a sex and relationship expert. Yes, it’s a real job and I am here to help you to become more sexually compatible with your current partner or simply to find a partner with whom you’re compatible. And it is all about work. It is not about fate. You can be compatible if you work for it. Now I’m, I’m excited for today’s show because we’re talking about an interesting and very relevant topic recently, the CBC, which is our public television broadcaster up here in Canada, the gray-white north. Recently, they ran a story on sugar daddies and sugar babies. And you know, this is nothing new. Every so often, every news outlet or entertainment outlet runs this story about this relationship arrangement between usually older men, not old men, but adult men, and oftentimes younger women. And they run this story as though it’s something brand new. They’re breaking something, it’s exotic. Oh, my goodness, we’re looking in from the outside, but this is more common than you think. I know a couple dozen women in undergrad in law school, in med school studying geology, neuroscience, teaching, HR, and you know, every subject under the sun. And they are working as sugar babies. And I also know a few young men working in the same capacity as sugar babies. But I’ve worked with a number of men who have played the role of sugar daddy formally. And let’s be honest, I know hundreds of men who, and met women who play it informally. They just happen to earn 50 times what their younger partners earn. Uh, they just don’t formalize the arrangement.

00:01:54 – 00:04:23

And I, I can think of one of my more recent clients from about five years ago. He is, uh, he’s a C-level executive. He was mid-forties. He went through a divorce and he wanted a casual relationship while her, his kids were still really young cuz the, the divorce was new, the kids were really young. So, he dated a few women who said they wanted no strings attached relationships, something casual. But the first few encounters there were three. They didn’t turn out well for him. So af and these were not sugar babies, these were just, you know, your, I suppose you could call it traditional dating. After a few months, each of these lovers that he had taken on separately, uh, revealed that they wanted more than just a friends-with-benefits arrangement. And in one case, honestly, it turned a bit nasty. So, this left a sour taste in his mouth. I’m telling you his backstory, just to tell you how he got here, he felt really conflicted because he was, was honest with these women. He was really clear about his intention. He asked them to be honest as well and wanted to support them in being honest about their desires.

But in the end, he felt they were either dishonest or consistently changed their minds after a few months. So, this led him and, well, basically his old friend from business school, this is so interesting, a woman, she was a sugar mama, she had a younger sugar baby. And so, he decided he was gonna give it a try. So, it took him a few meetings with potential sugar babies to find someone with whom he clicked. And eventually, he did. He found this wonderful woman they dated with this arrangement for eight months. He loved the companionship. She was bright and funny and attentive and uh, you know, it makes sense that she was attentive. But this is so interesting. He told me that the one thing he loved is that this woman really stood her ground.

She didn’t just do exactly everything he asked because he was paying her in the form of a monthly allowance if she wasn’t into something. She just said no. And he said, and these were his words. He’s like, it was refreshing because she said what she meant and she meant what she said.

00:04:24 – 00:05:10

So, this was one of my early introductions to the sugar baby, sugar daddy arrangement. Since then, I have met, as I said, dozens of young women working in the field and a couple of young men. But this is just one story I’m sharing one anecdotal story that is, you know, secondhand. So, to really gain some insight, I wanna talk to one of these bright young women about her experience working as a sugar baby. Brooke is on the line, and she has been working in the field for about a year. She is a master’s level grad student, and a number of her friends are also in, also in sugar baby sugar daddy relationships. So, hello Bear.


00:05:11 – 00:05:12

Hello. How are you?


00:05:13 – 00:05:14

I’m great, how are you?


00:05:15 – 00:05:16

I’m doing great, thank you. Thank you for having me.


00:05:17 – 00:05:35

Oh, thank you. We’re really excited. So, I, I’m wondering if you can describe to all of us what it means to be in a sugar baby sugar daddy relationship. Because, you know, I’m talking about it as though everyone understands it and maybe they don’t. So, what does it mean to be a sugar baby or a sugar daddy?


00:05:36 – 00:06:15

So, for myself as a sugar baby, so what I do is I create an arrangement. So, everything is set up in advance. I decide what I want. The man I’m in a relationship with decides what he wants. We have to come to some sort of consensual agreement about what we’re both looking for. And then from there, it’s just no strings attached. It’s extremely beneficial to both parties. It has to be enjoyable. And at the same time, I always make sure I’m protecting myself. But like I said, it’s a beneficial relationship to both parties.


00:06:16 – 00:06:25

Okay. So, without revealing too much info, can you tell us about one of these relationships? Is there someone with whom you have an ongoing relationship?


00:06:26 – 00:07:29

Yes, so I’ve actually had, um, a sugar daddy who I’ve been with for the past about nine months or so. Um, so he’s someone I met through an online database. Um, so for myself, I’m always very upfront and forward for exactly what I’m looking for because I don’t wanna waste anyone’s time and I wanna make sure there’s chemistry and I wanna make sure that both parties are happy. So basically, what I have going on is a relationship with this man where we meet usually once or twice a week. Um, we’ll go on dates, dinner, sometimes it’s just a movie in with wine, just very relaxed, casual. It’s more of an enhanced friendship if anything. Um, the relationship started out with allowances that I got per meeting and once we decided that we really enjoyed each other’s company and wanted to continue our arrangement, um, it moved into more of a monthly allowance.


00:07:30 – 00:07:46

Okay. Now I’m sure there’s people out there skeptics, people who are last familiar with these types of arrangements and really intimidated by them who will say, you know, you say you enjoy each other’s company. Do you really enjoy his company? And are you attracted to him? People must be curious.


00:07:47 – 00:08:37

So, I truly am, and that’s one of the biggest things that I say going into these relationships is I wanna make sure there’s chemistry first. Because if there isn’t any chemistry, then the relationship and arrangement won’t be enjoyable for us. Like I said, I’m not looking to waste someone’s time and I don’t, I don’t wanna waste theirs. I’m always gonna be upfront and honest. Um, after the first meeting, if I don’t feel a spark or if they don’t feel a spark, I want them to be honest with me and I’m gonna be honest with them. So, I really do enjoy my time, you know, it’s, I have someone to confide in, I have someone to be intimate with. And at the same time, it’s no strings attached, there’s no drama. It’s just, it’s so enjoyable just to have someone that you know you can rely on.


00:08:38 – 00:08:53

Okay, awesome. So how did you get into this field? I mean, I, I can think back to when I was in school and there were certainly people working in a, in similar industries, but the term sugar daddy and sugar baby wasn’t around. So how did you stumble into it?


00:08:53 – 00:09:39

So, I mean, I always knew that, that the industry existed just from, you know, watching television or reading articles and like you mentioned, so I’m a master’s level student and I have tuition to pay for, which is by no means cheap. Um, and just talking to a few girlfriends of mine and just trying to figure out how I was gonna pay for my schooling, just kind of mentioned that she had met someone just being out at the bar one night who proposed this type of arrangement and she got into it and she said, look, I think, you know, I think you’d be great. Like, you’re smart, you’re always gonna be safe and I can, I can help you and I can let you know what I’ve learned. And that’s pretty much just how it happened, just through a friend.


00:09:40 – 00:10:00

Okay, awesome. And so, so yeah, there’s a, there’s a group of you working in the field and I, I imagine you stick together and support one another, but I am certain that not everybody else sticks by you. I, I wanna know why do you think people are so outraged and so judgmental of these relationship arrangements.


00:10:01 – 00:11:15

So definitely my core group of girlfriends is the biggest support I have. Um, it’s great to have people that understand and support what I do. Um, I think a lot of people can be judgmental because they, there is a lot of stereotypes surrounding these type of relationships. A lot of times they think it’s just money for sex or that the girls that are in these relationships are using this money for things like shopping or getting their hair done or going on lavish vacations. And you know, it’s, in my case, that’s not what it is. I’m, this is, this is work, this is how I’m furthering myself in my career. And you know, like you said, there has, I’m sure there are relationships that don’t always turn out as well, but if you’re smart and you have a protocol of what you’re looking for and you’re upfront, this can really work out and this can really help women who want to further their careers and their lives really get ahead because why, why have a ton of debt when I’m done school when I can be working a job that I set my own hours that I enjoy and have a ton of fun doing at the same time.


00:11:16 – 00:11:46

Yeah, And I mean, it’s interesting that you say you’re using the money for school and not vacations, but why not vacations? I mean, when you look at it, why is it that, you know, me doing what I do is okay for me to go on lavish vacations, but you doing what you do, you have to be toiling for something more serious. So, I I I commend you in that whatever you’re doing with it, if you get, I mean you must get to go. Do you go interesting places? I mean I’ve talked to other girls who you get whisked away for a weekend on a private jet. Have you had anything exciting like that?


00:11:47 – 00:12:10

Oh yeah, don’t get me wrong. I’ve been on immaculate vacations and going out for dinner and it’s not to say that, you know, I don’t treat myself because being in this industry, you know, I, I do make, I do make good money and I am paying for school and at the same time, you know, I’m travelling, I can go to Europe, I can do a lot of things that if I was doing something else I would never have the opportunity to do.


00:12:11 – 00:12:21

Okay, awesome. And uh, you know, there are critics who are gonna say you’re being taken advantage of these poor women, they don’t know any better, they’re young. What do you say? What do you say to them?


00:12:22 – 00:12:38

Um, I’m not being taken advantage of in any way. It’s 100% my choice to be in this industry. It’s 100% my choice who I decide to have a relationship with. And if anything, these arrangements are some of the most consensual relationships I have ever been in.


00:12:39 – 00:12:47

Yes, that’s really interesting because I’m always gonna think about the people who have a bad story cuz certainly you have girlfriends who have bad stories from these relationships.


00:12:48 – 00:12:49

Ex-Exactly right.


00:12:50 – 00:12:59

But I mean I just think about in the rest of the world whether we don’t have these specific relationships, we have terrible relationships too. Nasty, nasty breakups.





00:13:00 – 00:13:10

Yes. And… and my experience from talking to sugar babies and sugar daddies is that they’re not really breakups. The relationship dissolves and it’s almost like the original conscious uncoupling.


00:13:10 – 00:13:30

Exactly. And you know, I’ve had relationships outside of the industry that finished disastrously or there’s all these issues, but I think the great thing about sugar baby and sugar daddy relationships is just that upfront-ness that you get from the get-go, that honesty that isn’t there in regular relationships.





00:13:31 – 00:13:33

Which just makes everything flow and work so much easier.


00:13:34 – 00:14:05

Yeah, and it’s interesting because a lot of them, the models that you’re using, negotiating what you want, setting your boundaries, if we just did that in all types of relationships, we’d be, we’d be better off. Now I do wanna ask you, what about the critics who say you’re taking advantage of these poor guys? Cuz I was reading online and of course, there’s all this nasty vitriol out there, uh, really rooted in misogyny, I believe and and strong ideas around gender. But what about the ones who say, oh, you’re taking advantage of these guys, um, you know, you’re exploiting them.


00:14:06 – 00:15:02

And Yeah, you know, I’ve heard and read that as well. And the big thing is, is that these men also are choosing who they want to develop an arrangement or a relationship with. And you know, this really isn’t any different than women seeking regular relationships with a rich man or, you know, the coined term of a gold digger. You know, it’s, and in that case, like there isn’t that upfront honesty, whereas with a sugar baby and a sugar daddy, you know, it’s, we’re helping each other. I’m providing companionship and intimacy and, you know, an enhanced friendship and they’re helping me in return with things like my school or, you know, it’s, I don’t really think it’s any different. If anything, in some cases it can be better than, you know, the women that aren’t upfront and honest but do love to pursue richer men.


00:15:03 – 00:15:48

Right. Yeah. And it def it goes both ways with gender as well. I I think we don’t talk about it as much in the other direction. Uh, and the, the other really important factor here is that money is power. So, it is difficult to take advantage of people with financial power. Um, yes. And finally, I wanna know how is your relationship different. Is it any different than, you know, my relationship with my husband where our relationship involves co-dependence, it involves financial sharing? When I first met him, I earned way more money than him and I, I honestly, I paid for everything. And then, but 10 years ago he, or maybe 12 years ago, he launched his business and that shifted and, and um, you know, when I was in school, he really paid for everything. So, so how is it any different or how do you, how do you put that into context? Uh,


00:15:49 – 00:16:45

So, I guess the real big difference between a regular relationship and a sugar baby and sugar daddy is I very much still live my own life outside of when we meet. So, besides our designated meeting times or our dates that we go on, I’m living my own life very much separately. You know, we only communicate on a, on a set basis. There’s only phone calls on a set basis or emails. So, in that sense it’s still very much, we are our own people outside of it. But I mean, going into it, it’s very much understood that, you know, I do require a certain, you know, I have financial needs and otherwise I probably wouldn’t be in a sugar baby or sh like sugar daddy relationship. So, I feel like that’s very much different. I have something else to offer my sugar daddy and they have something to offer me.



Yeah, that’s really interesting that you say that, you know, you have set times to call and set times to meet and I think that people in, uh, non, I suppose we’ll call them non-transactional relationships, could learn from that. I’d love if, you know, Sunday mornings you just don’t talk to me or something like that.


00:17:02 – 00:17:11

And that’s the thing, these men are so busy themselves that again, it’s no, it’s no strings attached. There’s not meant to be any drama or I’m, I’m not looking to cause them problems.


00:17:12 – 00:17:20

Okay. Excellent. Well thank you so very much for taking the time to speak with me today. Uh, I definitely learned a lot. Uh, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing your insights.


00:17:21 – 00:17:25

Thank you. Hopefully, people aren’t so much judgmental about these types of relations.


00:17:26 – 00:18:19

Yeah, I’m gonna talk about that right now. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Now I decided to address this topic head-on because after CBC ran their recent story, I saw the nasty backlash online and the comments were really disparaging toward both the sugar daddies and the sugar babies. And I’m gonna read you some of the stuff I read and obviously, this isn’t the worst of it, this is the cleaner part. So here, here’s what some people had to say, those women are too dumb to make it in the real world. Another guy says she’s ugly, I wouldn’t pay her to shine my shoes. Uh, I guess that’s not in reference to our guest, but in reference to someone in the CBC article, um, one more piece of evidence that society is sinking to, its lowest low, these girls are trash, okay, the guys are being exploited. So let’s address some of these statements.

00:18:20 – 00:19:23

So first and foremost, those women are too dumb to make it in the real world. Uh, this is an interesting one. The women I know who work not just in the sex industry but also as sugar babies are really some of the brightest of the bright, I’ve probably met, I’d say about 30 sugar babies over the years. And interestingly, I think they’ve all been university students. Now I’m not saying that university is a measure of intelligence. Uh, and this is just my observation. There are certainly sugar babies who are not in university, but I can tell you that the ones I’ve interacted with are definitely of above-average intelligence. And as for the real world, oh this is the real-world honey relationships based on financial transactions have been around since the beginning of time. And I’m not talking about paying for sex. I mean, most relationships since the beginning of human history have been transactional, romantic relationships, falling in love, picking a partner because you think they’re the one.

00:19:24 – 00:20:23

Those are new phenomenon. For the majority of human history, our relationships have been transact – transactional. You know, you know, okay, you go to a nightclub, and everyone wants to hang with the promoters or the owners or, or at, you know, the booth with the celebrity or the booth with all the champagne. Guess what? These are transactional relationships. And if you’re one of those people trying to get into those booths, you’re being transactional. If you’re one of the ones inviting the pretty people into your booths, you are being transactional. Or when you go to a networking event for business and you purposefully get friendly with the power players in your field, you’re creating a transactional relationship and may not involve sex, but ultimately you are forming relationships for financial gain and somehow you think you’re better cuz there’s no sex involved when you go out of your way to meet someone because of their status, their connections or their support they can offer to your business or your life.

00:20:24 – 00:21:35

These are transactional relationships. But more importantly, marriage has been a transactional relationship since the beginning of time. It wasn’t until recent history, the 19th century that marriage became about love. Marriages history is rooted in financial, political, and familial benefits. This is reality. This is the real world. All right? And it’s great. I think it’s amazing that people can now choose their partners. They can marry for love. This is a good thing, but I think it’s even better that people have choice. You can hook up for love, you can hook up for sex, you can hook up for friendship or you can hook up for financial benefit. Choice is a good thing, all right? They’re not too dumb to make it in the real world. Come on, this is the real world. All right? Another guy says she’s ugly. I wouldn’t pay her to shine my shoes.

00:21:36 – 00:22:34

Hey, well guess what? Women don’t exist just for your aesthetic pleasure. And sugar babies don’t just make money on the way they look. All right? It’s the charm, it’s the interaction, it’s the ability to anticipate people’s needs. It, it’s interesting, I, I studied for many years, I did a number of degrees, went on to do research in my field in and worked in academia for a while, studying, researching. And I have never learned as much as I learned working as a bartender, learning about people, and anticipating their needs. And maybe you don’t judge me as much because I didn’t have sex with my clients, but that’s just your own erotophobia. All right, here’s an another one. It says one more piece of evidence that society is sinking to its lowest low. Oh, my goodness, I am so sick of this. I am so sick of hearing about the world deteriorating.

00:22:35 – 00:23:36

I am tired of hearing that the kids aren’t okay. The world is not getting worse. Society is not deteriorating, the traditional family isn’t falling apart. In fact, that so-called traditional family you refer to with two parents, 1.6 kids in a picket fence is the opposite of traditional. When you really examine human history data, data tells us that the world is not deteriorating. The data says otherwise. You may choose to focus on the negative and it’s obvious. Some, you know, there are regressions, but that’s on you. That says more about your perspective than reality. Here’s the reality, let me think. Okay? War is at an all-time low crime I believe is at a 50-year low. Life expectancy has skyrocketed. Extreme poverty and hunger are decreasing. Young people are more open-minded and empathetic. The world is getting better. And I am not crediting sugar babies and sugar daddies with this, of course not.

00:23:37 – 00:24:45

But I gotta say the willingness of I believe younger people to be open about what they want in a relationship is an example we can all learn from. All right? You may never wanna be a sugar baby or a sugar daddy and that’s cool. It’s not for everybody, but you can learn from every relationship arrangement. Next criticism I read, these girls are trash, and these guys are pathetic. They don’t even know they’re being taken advantage of. Woo. How are two consenting adults opting into a relationship arrangement to which they both agree trashy or pathetic or exploitative? This is nonsense. And it’s interesting cuz the men that I worked with who were sugar daddies, uh, were not in a position to be exploited. Uh, certainly not financially. They had the money. And emotionally these guys were really on point. There’s a reason they were seeing me and working on themselves. These are powerful people in many cases. So, here’s what I think.

00:24:46 – 00:25:31

If you find yourself judging other people’s relationships, it’s probably because you are unhappy with your own. Why do you care? If another couple walks around dressed up as a show pony and it’s rider? Why do you care if another couple swings and swaps partners on the weekend? And why do you care if another couple exchanges sex for or money or both? Why? Why do you care? You care because you are dissatisfied with your own sexual relationship or romantic relationship. Or maybe you’re just not happy with where you’re at in life, so you deflect or project that on to others.

00:25:32 – 00:26:35

But don’t worry, you’re totally normal. We all judge, we all get jealous. We all project. But this jealousy, this judgment, it is crushing your capacity to be happy and loved. All right? Every time you judge someone else’s relationship, you are chipping away at your own. You are eliminating Ira, you really are eliminating the possibility of your own happiness of finding someone. Great. So, stop, stop. When you find yourself judging, you don’t need to chastise yourself. And I, I really, I’m not trying to chastise you. I just wanna call you out so you can have a better life, a happier life, happier relationships because you deserve it. I’m not saying you’re a bad person for judging. I’m not saying I’m any different. I’m human. I judge too. But I have learned to call myself out and get at the root of the judgment. Why am I doing this?

00:26:36 – 00:27:38

I’ve learned to do this so I can stop doing it so I can be happier. When you find yourself judging, stop and ask yourself one simple question. How does this affect me? How does this sugar baby and sugar daddy relationship that I’m not a part of? How does it actually affect me or someone I care for?

Usually, the answer is that it doesn’t. And once you realize this, once you kind of shift your cognitive patterns to say, this doesn’t affect me and it works for someone else, it makes it easier to let it go. And I do understand that certainly some of these sugar daddies could be cheating, and that sucks. That really, really sucks. Cheating sucks, but it is not a sugar daddy-sugar baby relationship that makes somebody cheat. And I’ve, you know, have a podcast on cheating. You can give it a listen.

00:27:39 – 00:28:45

We can put the link below. There are lots of reasons people cheat. There are some things we can do about it so that that’s another conversation. But usually, the answer as to how this affects you is that it doesn’t. And it’s time to let it go. Now here’s the real problem. Maybe seeing this relationship reminds you of something you are missing, something you want that you need to prioritize. If you really want it. Maybe it’s companionship. Maybe you need to look at your own relationship and dating patterns and change them. Maybe what you feel you’re missing is the financial power or financial independence. Maybe you’re jealous because you feel you’ve been taken advantage of by someone you dated. Maybe you’re hurt. Maybe it was a friend who took advantage of you. Maybe seeing their relationship triggers you to recall a time that you felt exploited and you’re projecting the associated hurt and negative emotions onto them.

00:28:46 – 00:29:50

But guess what? Not every relationship is the same. Just because you were taken advantage of by a particular type of person, maybe you were taken advantage by someone younger than you, someone beautiful, someone rich. It doesn’t mean that every person who shares this quality beauty, wealth or youth is the same. So, remind yourself of this. When you categorize and profile people based on one characteristic or one role they play, and your experience with this characteristic, you are limiting yourself. You’re limiting your capacity to find love, to keep love, to cultivate love. Maybe you’re jealous because you’re not having the sex you want in your relationship and you wanna make excuses. You say, oh, well, if I paid for it, I could get exactly what I want too, but I’m above that. Nope, you’re not above it. Sex itself isn’t a moral issue. How you treat people in sexual relationships is the moral issue.

00:29:51 – 00:30:57

Check your jealousy. Maybe you’re jealous because these women seem to have more choices than you. They can choose to be sexual. They can capitalize on it financially. They can go to school; they can travel the world. They can build exciting, fulfilling careers.

I’m not saying it’s sunshine and rainbows, obviously like any job or any relationship, there are days when you love it and days that you hate it. There are perks and there are drawbacks. And because these roles tend to be really rooted in traditional gender roles, there is inevitable exploitation. Of course, it can happen. Like any field or any relationship, exploitation can happen. We’ve all been in unhealthy relationships. We’ve been the cause of unhealthy relationships. My point here isn’t that you should become a sugar baby or become a sugar daddy unless you want to. My point here is that you can learn not only from their stories but from your reaction to this story.

00:30:57 – 00:32:07

Be introspective. You can learn from my rant or what you might perceive as my criticize, but I, you know, I’m not criticizing your reaction. I’m calling you out and asking you to look at it so that hopefully with this introspection you can make changes. You deserve to be happy, you deserve love. And I mean, what else do you really want in life other than love? And you know, if you’re critical of others, other relationships, you are holding yourself back from this happiness. You’re holding yourself back from this love and it’s time to let go of this criticism. Call yourself out. Admit to your baggage. Admit to your insecurities. Admit to your jealousies because we all have them. Anyone who has ever overcome anything in life will tell you that the pivotal moment for overcoming challenge was admitting their own culpability, admitting that it was on them.

00:32:08 – 00:33:01

We can always make excuses for why, why relationships don’t work out. But when we admit that we are responsible, it wasn’t my partner, it wasn’t my mother-in-law, it wasn’t the kids, it’s me. That’s when change happens and you can change your perspective. If you stop judging other people, you’ll be happier, you’ll be healthier, you’ll have more sex. You’ll find a compatible partner or become more compatible with the partner you have when you let the judgment go. So, I want you just even for the rest of the day when you start judging people for what they look like, what they wear, what they have, how they talk, what they do for a living, what kind of relationship they have, I want you just to stop and say, how does this affect me? And remind yourself that you know, it probably doesn’t. And remind yourself that you deserve to be happy.

00:33:02 – 00:34:10

You deserve whatever it is you want to be happy. Now I have to stop there. Thank you so much again, my name is Jessica O’Reilly. I am a sex and relationship expert and I focus on sexual compatibility. Hopefully, this advice helps you to become more compatible and reminds you that compatibility isn’t something that’s a matter of fate. It is a matter of hard work. And this episode has been brought to you by Desire Resorts, a clothing-optional, adults-only playground. They have a couple of locations on the Mayan Riviera just south of Cancun, and I am heading on their cruise next fall to Croatia and Italy and around the Mediterranean. And I’m very excited. I would love to see you there. You can learn more online, and you can find me on my website with links to Desire Resorts Thank you so much and I look forward to hearing from you. I’m sure you have lots to say about this topic. So, I’ll, I’ll be watching my inbox and my Twitter feed and my Instagram feed for your response. Until next time.